Is it really just a few bad apples?

[Bob]

So - this will probably be a lively discussion. The police come under a lot of heat these days. And, as usual, people are drawing their lines. America is running the range between Antifa, and the Thin Blue Line supporters. My call - whenever you have a lot of government authority, and institutions involved, you are headed for problems. And, as always, you really need to look at the context and each situation in context. My call: There are more than a few bad apples. Also, there are a lot of so called good apples that know that - or don't do the right thing when confronted with bad apples. And there are a lot of external factors that are outside of individual control. So...before you watch this keep in mind:

1. This is California- sensibility does not apply
2. I do not know this guy. So I am assuming he is an upright upstanding citizen doing a 20/20 style investigation. Very publicly I might add.
3. The city of Torrence is one specific department. I don't know anything about it other than what I'm seeing.
4. Everyone works for someone - I don't know what is going on at higher levels.
5. At the end of the video, he points out an obvious political bias.
6. I get take the course then submit; We don't want to do screening for people that don't follow through. But that isn't the law.

However:
1. At a minimum many people are completely unaware of the correct procedures and laws.
2. When directly confronted/shown the laws/rules/statutes they deliberately chose to ignore or deny them.
3. After those encounters no one must have asked, looked up, or clarified this. That would be fine, but like I said - this guy is known and was seen multiple times and is obviously recording.
4. There is a consistent pattern of disregard, deflection, and out right lies from officers. Not one - it looks like at least 5 different ones.
5. I do not believe that these people's supervisors are not aware of this guy and what he is doing. If so - they had to deliberately be told to do this. So that is five and likely their supervisors.

This is how they handle a simple form processing.

I'd really like to hear an explanation for this. Based on what I see here - there are a number of police that have a serious competency and ethical problem. There is very very likely a serious problem with supervisory and leadership in the department. There seems to be a political problem with the city.

These guys are lying, breaking laws, ignoring documents put right in front of their faces. Don't tell me it is a few bad apples.

*And before anyone goes to the "What about this that and the other thing" that has nothing to do with the police - start another thread. This is about explain the police.

This is why people don't like or trust the police and I'm going to say it - based on this they don't deserve it. Now, I'm not gonna "defund" them or burn it down. But wow - If I were mayor I'd be firing and supporting citizens lawsuits on everyone involved in this. I'm not EVER going to Torrence.

[tom mac]

Different answer from diff police officials in NY when it comes to gun laws...common. Prob a lack of specific knowledge in general.
Takes almost a yr to get a lic in this state ( not a full carry, but usu a target only permit )

But here there is a special section of the police dept that only handles pistol permits... they usu give the correct answers from my experience

[Bob]

Not knowing the correct answer is one thing. What you see here are flat out lies. Made directly, knowingly, and repeatedly. By multiple parties, and highly likely others we can't see.

[Ronin.45]

I think the percentage of bad apples in the police department is the same as any other job. Probably 1 out of 10 people are lazy, stupid, and bad at their job. Out of 100 people, at least one of them is going to be an asshole. In 1000 there will be at least one who is a genuinely bad person who likes to torment and hurt people. This is no different for police officers because they are just people.
If you take a large department in a big city, they'll have at least 1 genuinely bad person, 10 assholes, and 100 lazy/stupid people bad at their jobs.

[David]

This is why people don't like or trust the police and I'm going to say it - based on this they don't deserve it.

Are you presuming to speak for all people, or just assuming that people don't like police? Are you presuming to stereotype all police based off one video, from someone you don't know on YT, in California, by saying they don't deserve respect?

My suggestion if you ever find yourself in an emergency situation is to not call the police because why would you call people you don't like or respect for help?

[Bmyers]

I can only address the officers I know and have interacted with. I'm an unusual case, because I grew up in the police scout program so from my freshman year in high school, I was around police officers. I got to ride along and had to complete so many hours each month in dispatch and once we turned 18, we were able to drive the back up squad cars and work special details like parades and events. I was lucky, because I knew most officers in our area, city, county, and state.

Almost all of them were/are great people (many have retired, some have died). Thinking over the list of a little over 100 different officers I know, 4 come to mind that should of never been officers. I know 3 of them were weeded out. I don't know what happen to the 4th one.

Were some of the officers lazy? Sure, but as it was pointed out you will find that any job.

Graduating from high school, I went into dispatching and from there I moved into EMS/Fire. So, I continued to interact with officers for the next 20 years. Like any job, you occasionally have a bad day when you come into work. Yet, I watched these officers on many occasions go above what they were legally required to do and proved that they were just good moral people. Not perfect people, but good people.

Even the officer that threatened to arrest me at a scene was a good officer (retired now), but he was emotionally caught up in the scene. (Tragic incident of a boyfriend killing a 6 week old baby.) He just wanted the baby saved and I knew we couldn't and need to preserve the scene. He threatened to arrest me till the other officers intervened. It wasn't that he was a bad officer, just caught up in situation and he did later come and apologize to me.

My point with the story, that was a good officer, but the day-to-day stress and things that are seen, can sometimes cause a good officer to make a poor choice. We expect officers to perform at 110% all the time and have to realize they are human. We didn't train them to be social workers. There is no magical way to equip people to emotional deal with the things that are seen. No matter how tough, how good you are, it takes a toll on you.

Yes, lets deal with the few bad apples. Lets also realize officers aren't lawyers, need legal advice, see a lawyer. The reason the officers don't charge you with a crime, because they ain't lawyers, that is the DA/SA's job. The officers are trained to a level to attempt to identify a crime and it is up to the DA/SA's to decide if there is enough evidence that a crime has been committed.

As much as most of us know about gun laws, many officers don't. They aren't gun people and they know what they need to deal with and leave the details up to the DA/SA's. I spent time talking with local officers and chiefs when our carry conceal laws came into place to help educate them. Yet again, I'm in a very unique position/relationship and was afforded the opportunity.

Instead of people going on YouTube trying to show how every cop is out to get them and they don't know every law that has ever been written, why don't they spend sometime actually talking with the leadership of that department? take them out to lunch and get an opportunity to know and share the concerns instead of grandstanding on YouTube.

Anyway, I have probably said to much, but it is always easy to point out problems, a lot harder to provide solutions.

[Bob]

This is why people don't like or trust the police and I'm going to say it - based on this they don't deserve it.

Are you presuming to speak for all people, or just assuming that people don't like police? Are you presuming to stereotype all police based off one video, from someone you don't know on YT, in California, by saying they don't deserve respect?

My suggestion if you ever find yourself in an emergency situation is to not call the police because why would you call people you don't like or respect for help?

I'm talking about THAT police department. I will not have to call the Torrence police because I won't be there.

I'm saying when you wonder why the police have an image problem, it isn't because of a guy who had one bad moment or a bad day. Stuff like you saw on that video was not one bad apple, one bad moment, etc. And it isn't an image problem.

Dave - I thought you be defensive. You immediately went to "well Bob - don't call the police" I'm asking you - tell me what you saw on that video.

[Bob]

I can only address the officers I know and have interacted with.
Anyway, I have probably said to much, but it is always easy to point out problems, a lot harder to provide solutions.

Again - a lot of explanations, and defense of the majority. I expect to hear that on hear. Same question as I asked Dave. Tell me about what you saw on those videos.

How many people does it take for that to happen?

I get it - its a hard job. well, that's the job. The police can't afford to have perceived trust issues, let alone real ones. Every job has something about that is tougher than the average job. Surgeon, electrician, chicken inspector...you name it.

You guys think Any democrat trying to "Infringe" needs hanged. Well - there is a police department with likely 10+ involved in screwing over and infringing.

Tell me what is going on there.

[David]

I'm talking about THAT police department.

No, you were making a generalized, sweeping statement;

This is why people don't like or trust the police and I'm going to say it - based on this they don't deserve it.

Such a statement is never wise or accurate.

I'm saying when you wonder why the police have an image problem...

Only to some folks. Again, you can only speak for yourself or at most 'some' people. There are folks who don't think the police have an image problem. And I would say most folks can differentiate between stereotypes and individual specifics.

Dave - I thought you be defensive.

Not defensive at all, simply calling out BS when I see it. Your wording was intentional to try to get a rise. That's fine. Don't be surprised however when you get that rise.

I'm asking you - tell me what you saw on that video.

I saw a few individuals in a liberally run department, in a liberally run state making it hard for private citizens to get a CCW. Either through not giving a sh!t, not wanting to rock the boat or intentionally being deliberate in their effort to make it nearly impossible. That isn't a commentary on the 'police' it's a commentary on liberally run institutions and those that support them. It's a commentary on California.

[Bob]

Hey - I caveated the thing up front....California - and New York is probably worse!And yes - I could not imagine living in those places for all sorts of reasons. But seriously - you think that is a few individuals? No way. And while it may be a liberally run whatever - at the end of day they ignored their own liberal laws.

How many people does it take? In how many departments? And at what level?

I'm calling that a tip of the iceberg. I have spent enough time going into schools, hospitals, banks, EM orgs, etc. to know when you see that much that blatant - you have a bad organization on your hands. Again - I could be wrong. May have to look up this department.

But this goes back to my often stated issue: If what you say is true - when someone gives the order to do wrong, its going to be followed. At least in Torrence...