IS there a police problem, and if so what reforms would be good?

[Bob]

I'm gonna throw this out here and see what we think. And you don't have to distinguish "problem" from "need improvements/changes" in general.

Skipping the general political hoo-haa of there moment...WOuld it be a good idea for some general reforms?

[Bmyers]

I believe just about every job I can think of goes through improvement/changes and needs updating.

Does law enforcement need updating? Yes, but it is not the complete fault of the law enforcement.

First, bad apples are in every industry/profession. Bad cops, bad firefighters, bad doctors, bad sales people, etc. and those individuals are not what we are talking about here. Bad people need to be dealt with regardless of their profession. A banker stealing from the bank, a doctor prescribing medicine to make extra money, a police officer stealing evidence, etc. are all outside of the reform, because these are bad 'people' and need to be dealt with. Doesn't mean a profession is bad, but every profession has a few bad people in it.

Law enforcement needs to be updated, but the issue isn't totally with the law enforcement. The communities/legislators has made everything a 'police issue' and the expectation is that police will have the 'tool set and skills' to solve every problem. If you have an issue with you kids behavior, call the police; if you have an issue with your neighbors dog, call the police; if you don't like your wife's cooking, call the police.

The task we have legislatively and community wise have expected our law enforcement to take care of is outside of the officers role (should be in my opinion).

The change needs to come from the legislators and the legal expectation of the officers. We have forced the police to get involved in every little aspect of our life via laws. This needs to change. Do we need law enforcement? Yes, but they don't need to be the solution to every problem.

This leads to the community, who feels that the government needs to solve all their problems including when they make poor decisions. Heaven forbid anyone take responsibility for their choices. The community needs to raise their own kids for starters. Don't expect the schools or the government to do that for you. Schools need to get back to teaching the basics and allow the parents (which need to step up) to raise the kids.

The law enforcement officers are caught in the middle between an unhappy community that doesn't want to take responsibility for their actions and a government who has stuck its nose into places that it doesn't belong.

My views would be consider extreme by many because I would be getting the whole welfare and social assistance program. Although I would start first with the government and no longer would any elected official receive a pension or special healthcare. You would get a matching 401K and all elected politicians would have a term limit. If the President can only serve two terms, every other elected position is two terms. WE get rid of the career politicians and we would see a major change in the US.

Anyway, the post is long enough, but back to Bob's question, yes there needs to be reform, but much of the reform needs to come from outside of law enforcement.

[Ronin.45]

There are plenty of improvements that need to be made, but there's plenty of things civilians need to improve too.
Just in recent news we've had an officer commit straight up murder on camera, but we also have public outcry over a violent armed criminal being shot when he pointed a weapon at officers. Both of these incidents are horrendous and need to stop. They do nothing but drive a wedge between us.

[David]

When the general public thinks of the 'police', what are they actually thinking of? Is it the municipal city police i.e. Police Officer? Is it a Sheriff's Deputy for the county? Is it the State Police or Highway Patrol Trooper? Is it a federal agency? All of these could be lumped under the term 'police' but they all have differences. Each state will have it's own guidelines just as each individual agency. There will be a lot of similarity but also regional differences.

For example, in the state of Florida it use to be illegal for any Law Enforcement Officer to shoot a fleeing felon, yet a Corrections Officer could shoot a fleeing felon. Now both can under the right set of circumstances although the Corrections Officer has more leeway.

As far as the term 'reform', well, it's a nifty little word that is bandied about a lot but is pretty much a waste of time and effort. Do the 'police' need 'reform'....no. No matter what type of changes you institute you will always have people that don't belong in the job for whatever reason. Just like you have people that shouldn't be a doctor, a lawyer, in the military etc. Doctors kill many times more people annually than police by making mistakes and bad decisions yet I don't hear people clamoring for doctor reform. No 'reform' is going to weed out the bad apples.

As far as protests and protestors go, the Constitution allows for PEACEABLE assembly. So as long as the protest remains peaceful and doesn't violate federal, state or local laws i.e. blocking roads and bridges, then every thing is well, fine and good. The moment is becomes violent and/or laws are broken your Constitutional right just ended because you ended it. Anyone throwing a brick, frozen water bottle, cement filled water bottle or molotov cocktail is now in the act of throwing a deadly weapon and it should be meet with deadly force. No one has a right to injure or attempt to injure an Officer or private citizen.

Black Lives Matter and Antifa are terrorist organizations and should be dealt with as such. They are not peaceful protests with the goal of promoting some positive change. There are terrorist organizations with an agenda to tear down the American Constitution. So my suggested 'reform' is to start treating both of those terrorist organizations the same way you would treat ISIS if they were on American soil.

[JDH]

Privatization is the only answer.

[Bob]

Is that a serious statement? what is the problem that prioritization solves? Any examples of this working?

[David]

Privatization is the only answer.

Most jails/prisons that I'm aware of that have privatized end up going back to certified personnel. The only reason to consider it in the first place is financial, but usually ends up costing more in the end. Rather than paying a Corrections Officer X amount of dollars they get personnel in at a vastly reduced rate of pay but they have vastly less experience/training.

Privatize the police (not that it is possible) and you may as well have vigilantes. No way a private company is going to match the amount of training required to do the job on a consistent basis along with the required infrastructure.

[Mac66]

There are bad cops just like there are bad lawyers, judges, politicians, truck drivers, store clerks etc, etc. You are never going to pass enough reforms to eliminate overt criminal acts by the police, just like you can't pass enough gun control laws to end violence. It's going to happen one way or another. The police are truly the thin blue line between order and anarchy and you have to take the bad with the good. I'm not saying that to justify the actions of bad cops but simply to put things in perspective.

[Bob]

There are going to be bad people everywhere, like you said. But do we accept that level of problem in certain people? Surgeon? Pilot?

And the question is, on the whole, is there more or less of than we should be tolerating?

The case of Floyd seems very clear: 19 or however many force use infractions, put knee to the throat, wasn't stopped by three other officers, and ignored pleas of the crowd, and did it while being filmed. That is some deep wrong stuff period. And it could not have been just him. Others knew how he acted, he had supervisors, etc.

This may have just been the time he went too far. And those are only the times we know about. Or maybe it was the only bad moment he had. But how many are like him, or worse? Or is he just "One Bad Apple"

I'm asking your opinions.

[David]

According to the NHTSA, more than 10,000 people die per year from drunk driving. Driving impaired being dangerous is not a secret, everyone knows it. There are a multitude of laws concerning drunk driving. So adults take it upon themselves to break the law and put others at risk. Police shoot and kill around 600 people a year. Most of that number are of course good shootings. But comparing the numbers we can see an area that is a lot more lethal than police shootings despite laws being in place, despite the common knowledge of the danger. Passing additional ‘reform’ concerning drunk driving is likely to have little effect.

Police on the other hand face a multitude of dangers on a daily basis that isn’t immediately common knowledge. In other words, most folks don’t realize how quickly a situation can go south or the fraction of time in which an Officer has to make multiple decisions without the luxury of 20/20 hindsight or a do-over button. So as I said above, the word ‘reform’ is little more than a talking point without real substance.