Priority of factors

[David]

I'm going to try to word this as carefully as possible to avoid a myriad of possible rabbit hole conversations. This thread is NOT about manual safeties or C3 vs. C1 carry or hammer-fired vs. striker fired pistols etc. The phenomena that I see occur in these types of conversations is fascinating and IS what I'd like to toss out for discussion.

To set it up, during a couple of recent C3 vs. C1 carry on a different forum the phenomena really started to crystalize so I pursued it, to the chagrin of several posters. Thinking back I've seen the same thing occur during typical MS vs. No-MS and hammer-fired vs. striker-fired discussions. To specify, using the C3/C1 discussion I referenced, one often cited reason against C3 is time to draw, rack and fire on round. Now full disclosure, I have two firearm instructor certifications. One is through my state for Police and the other is for Israeli (C3) carry. I can and have carried C3. I have zero issues with carrying C3. I have zero issues with anyone else, that is trained carrying C3. I have family in both the IDF and National Police that carry/carried C3 and have had successful in deadly force incidents. So I'm always on the side of C3 is reasonable if you're properly trained. Having said that, as can be expected, there are many that disagree (and that's fine). Some take it to the rude extreme in their disagreement. That's the way it is on some forums. But here is where the phenomena pops up in some of the more hostile disagreement...actual realistic factors. As one example that I mentioned above is 'time'. Someone will always stay that C3 (or a MS or a hammer-fires pistol or revolver) is slower than C1 ( on not having a MS or using a striker-fired pistol). And this is true enough. But how slow?

In regards to the C3 vs. C1 discussion, a trained individual will be about 3/10ths of a second slower drawing (either with one or both hands). I demonstrated that with videos and personal testimonial. A sub-second C3 draw is perfectly reasonable if the person is trained. Some felt that 3/10ths of a second was the end-all-to-be-all factor in an incident. That they HAD to have that extra 3/10ths of a second in order to survive the incident. They felt that ALL attacks happen in the blink of an eye. I found that interesting. Now I firmly believe that one should be as fast as they reasonably and safely can be. But in the incidents I've been involved in, 3/10ths of a second would not have been a factor that made a difference one way or another. And I've been in quite a few unfortunately. So I began to ask some simple questions to those that felt that 3/10ths of a second was crucial; Have you ever been involved in a deadly force incident in which 3/10ths of a second was a determining factor? And, are you aware of any C3 incidents with a trained individual where 3/10ths of a second was an actual determining factor? So far, in over 20 pages no one has touched the question. And I think it's a perfectly reasonable question.

A continuation of the phenomena. Several folks offered that C3 is simply safer with a striker-fired pistol which is why they choose to carry C3. Hard for the pistol to unintentionally discharge if there is no round in the chamber. Well, that's correct. A few of the folks really delved deep into it with charts and stats on unintentional discharges from LE and of course the plethora of videos available on the net. Their contention was simply that they had a low likelyhood of actually being in a deadly force incident, but not zero. Thus it was more important to them that they were as safe as possible with the pistol while still having the pistol and that in all likelyhood they'd have time to rack the slide if/when necessary.

So I started looking at that angle. No one could demonstrated where 3/10ths of a second was an actual determining factor. No one could demonstrate where C3, for a trained individual was a detriment as far as time was concerned. But I had to admit that unintentional discharges (videos, links, articles, testimonials) would fill page after page after page of a thread.

So while being fast is of course important, and there do exist situations that require speed of reaction, there are a lot of situations that don't. So outside of competition, how high is the actual priority of 'speed' based on actual incidents we can examine (in regards to C3 carry for trained people). How high of a priority is being as safe as possible with the carry method? How do those two specific factors correlate with each other? It just seemed that some folks focus everything on a lower priority factor (that they've never experienced nor know of an incident they can readily cite) while ignoring a higher priority considerations that would fill pages in a thread.

Again, this thread is not about C3 or MS or anything like that. That's just the premise that kicked off my observation. If anyone wants to talk C3 or MS or hammer-fired then please start a separate thread and we can chat about it for 20 pages, lol. I want this thread to be about the priority of factors (speed, safety, capacity, carry and extra mag etc) that lead you to making the decisions you've made. Is it a whim? Is it something you experienced personally that changed your view? Was it training? Is it simply because that's the way you want to do (insert choice here)?

I've probably done a lousy job of trying to put this thought into a post. I'm still under the weather and not firing on all cylinders. But I just felt like sharing something I found interesting.

[aerynsun]

I think you have to look at all the factors:
Speed
Stress
Complexity of operation
Remember to perform operation
Ability to perform operation
Shooting accuracy
Loss of 1 round
Murphy's law

I think under stress it is not a good idea. Look at the police officer who killed the driver thinking she had a tazer in her hand - trained and experienced officer. Now take the average citizen under stress.

I carry a S&W 380 Bodyguard that has a firm double action first shot. I think that is better than C3 for all around safety.

[David]

I think you have to look at all the factors:
Speed
Stress
Complexity of operation
Remember to perform operation
Ability to perform operation
Shooting accuracy
Loss of 1 round
Murphy's law

And I would add 'safety' to the list as well. Administrative handling of a firearm will happen far more often that drawing it in SD. Thus safety should be a factor that is higher up on the list. Safety can come in different forms, I consider none of them wrong;

• Use of a DA first trigger pull

• Use of a manual safety

• Unchambered carry

• Thoroughly examining the holster off-body prior to inserting the pistol, each-and-every-time, and then placing the holster on body

Any one of these things can reduce the chance of an unintentional discharge. Thus it's an easy thing to quantify as a factor of higher importance than some other factors.

So let's look at speed since it's always at or towards the top of the list for many;

• Do some incidents occur rapidly requiring fast draw/fire? Yes.

• Do all incidents occur rapidly requiring fast draw/fire? No.

• Is the time difference between C1 and C3 draw/fire (in a trained individual) significant enough to invalidate C3 as an option? I've never seen nor heard of a C3 incident in which the time difference (generally around 3/10ths of a second) was an actual factor to consider.

• Does a manual safety slow down the draw/fire? No.

Neither is an exhaustive list but it's fine for now to promote the discussion. I would submit that while speed is A factor, it is not THE factor and would properly fall under safety on the list of priorities.

[bdcochran]

The thread is entitled "priorities".

My neighbor is the same age. I have a commercially installed gate on the driveway, a commercially installed gate on the sidewalk, motion detector lights on the gates, on the front porch, on the driveway on the wall behind the gate, in the backyard. The gates have two deadbolts each.

My neighbor has no gate between the house and the garage at the end of his driveway.

He otherwise has a fence around his whole property. A portion is cyclone. A portion is barbwire (which is illegal, but I don't care), cinder block, and wood.

Guess who has been burglarized. At 12:30 a.m., he chased two guys out of his backyard. The time before, a guy had walked down the driveway and tried to get in through the back door. One time, he lost his computer.

Oh, yes, he has a gun.

I think, however, you start with lights and a gate!