Why you should be armed in the woods/wilderness

[David]

Not that I would really need it for my A.O. (for the most part), I'm thinking that my next acquisition need to be a Glock 21 and then the parts to convert it over to 10mm. The 10mm is one caliber I've never owned and I'd like to get back into 45acp 'just because' so this would fill both niches.

Or just buy heavier springs and make your 21 into a 45 Super. Although ammo is expensive you can reload it using regular 45 acp dies and bullets. Starline makes the brass.

This sounds interesting. I'll have to put some research into it. What weight spring? And I wonder how expensive the ammo is compared to 10mm?

[tom mac]

45 Super gets you about 300+fps on a 230 grain head... pressures are can be almost 2x of reg 45acp.
So good brass is needed along with good chamber support.

Just don't mix up the loads in diff guns !

Cost in designer ammo is about the same at $1 per round ( 10mm to 45 S )

( have shot a few in my stock Sig 220, but def needs a heavier spring )

[Mac66]

45 Super gets you about 300+fps on a 230 grain head... pressures are can be almost 2x of reg 45acp.
So good brass is needed along with good chamber support.

Just don't mix up the loads in diff guns !

Cost in designer ammo is about the same at $1 per round ( 10mm to 45 S )

( have shot a few in my stock Sig 220, but def needs a heavier spring )

Chamber pressures in the 45 Super are still below 10mm pressures. 45 ACP runs 18,000-22,000 CUP while the 10mm runs 33,000 CUP. The 45 Super runs 28,000 CUP.

Get the heaviest recoil spring i.e 24 #. Stock G21 springs are 17#

You can get 1300 FPS out of 185 gr bullet, about 1200 FPS out of 200 gr bullets and 1100-1200 w/230 gr. in 45 Super.

There are several threads on Glocktalk about using the 21 in 45 Super.

The advantage of the 10mm is that it is much more common and while specialty (bear) loads are expensive regular ammo isn't all that much more than other regular ammo.

The advantage of the 45 Super is that if you already have a 45 acp auto it can likely be converted to 45 Super by swapping out a few springs. So, no need for a new gun/caliber/10mm. Pistols like the HK USP can allegedly shoot 45 super right out of the box. Of course being able to reload makes the conversion much more affordable.

When all is said and done It may just be easier to buy a 21 and a 10mm conversion barrel and call it good. I wasn't aware there were conversion bbls available for the 21 though you might need a stronger recoil spring for 10mm anyway.

[David]

When all is said and done It may just be easier to buy a 21 and a 10mm conversion barrel and call it good. I wasn't aware there were conversion bbls available for the 21 though you might need a stronger recoil spring for 10mm anyway.

From everything I'm looking at, you need a barrel, stronger spring and 10mm mags. Depending on who you talk to, you need a G20 extractor although somewhere along the way someone said that in Gen 4's you don't need it?

The 45 Super idea has been very interesting to research and I have some videos in the 10mm thread in the Defense section. The guy said the same thing as you as far as the HK. He recommended (as have others) to get a replacement barrel if the pistol is a Glock for better chamber support? Don't know if that's really needed or just extra for safety?

45 Super will definitely allow you a larger/heavier bullet. 10mm provides the pluses you mentioned. I've never really considered this area and although I don't really 'need' it, it's been interesting and fun to look into 'just because'. Although I do have a dedicated 'woods carry' pistol (40 S&W and probably the P2000 though the USPc might vie for the position) I don't have a dedicated 'hunting' pistol.

[Mac66]

Interesting video by a guy who was attacked by a black bear.

Watch the video and then comment on his tests/comments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v58WL-1 ... wwcFrzxGis

[David]

The bear spray was very disappointing as far as distance. I seem to remember some other brands going farther in a Ranger video I saw in one of the major parks. Probably depends on the brands and the distances.

As far as pistol/revolver selection I think it really depends on what you can handle one-handed under stress the best. While a .44 magnum is often touted as the best mountain trail gun, how many could really get accurate shots on target one-handed or if injured? As a hunting revolver it would be fine because it is likely to be a longer barrel, maybe a scope and you have time to make a good shot, probably in single-action. As a trail gun that you may have to deploy in a hurry, at a moving target and possibly with one-hand it seems to me to be sub-optimal.

I seemed like he fumbled with the draw of the snubby and that could cost precious time in an emergency.

It seemed the .45acp did a good job on the bear and this would help confirm what that Chuke guy up in Alaska reported as far as that rounds popularity.

[Mac66]

Kudo's to him for successfully stopping a bear attack and for addressing some of the issues in his video. I do take issue with some of his comment and techniques.

-Rolling the tire to test shooting a moving target was a good idea. It would have been better had it been rolled directly at him to cause some stress and to better replicate a charging bear. Shooting a fast rolling target that goes by you doesn't really prove anything.

-What's with thumb cocking a double action revolver? It's double action for a reason. He failed on that point.

-He killed the bear with one shot from a 45 auto he pulled from his pocket. He was successful. Why even bother testing anything else? I guess you could ask what if? What if he had missed the head shot? What if the bear kept coming?

-The discussion about hollow point ammo was pointless. He used hardball. Just about everybody agrees that heavy hard cast or solid bullets work best on heavy bone/muscled animals. Why even discuss hollow points or soft points?

-And yes, bear spray sometimes works but I wouldn't count on it.

[David]

-Rolling the tire to test shooting a moving target was a good idea. It would have been better had it been rolled directly at him to cause some stress and to better replicate a charging bear. Shooting a fast rolling target that goes by you doesn't really prove anything.

I was thinking the same thing when I watched the video. I was like, if the bear is running past you but not toward you why shoot at it? Only thing he did show was how difficult it can be to hit a moving target although side-to-side is different that straight at you where the target is only getting larger.

-What's with thumb cocking a double action revolver? It's double action for a reason. He failed on that point.

Yeah, that was a big swing and a miss. If something is charging at you there is going to be time to cock the hammer back on each shot. This goes to prove what I was saying above, you have to be able to handle the weapon. I can't help thinking that a plain-Jane 9mm with 147g FMJ's would actually be a better trail gun than a 44 magnum for the majority of people. Not a hunting gun, but a trail gun. How many 9mm shots could the average person get off accurately in the time it would take to get off one .44 (getting it accurately back on target for a follow up shot)? Particularly if you're taking the time to cock the hammer back for each shot. Sure, the 9mm is of course smaller, but I'd be willing to bet you could empty a full double stack magazine of 9mm in the time it would take the average person to fire 2 rounds of .44. Just thinking out loud on this...

-He killed the bear with one shot from a 45 auto he pulled from his pocket. He was successful. Why even bother testing anything else? I guess you could ask what if? What if he had missed the head shot? What if the bear kept coming?

It does seem like .45acp is a very decent choice, +P even better. Which circles back around to thinking 40 S&W is actually a very more-than-decent choice for woods carry. You've got near the capacity of 9mm (which is more than any revolver and most 45's), a good sized bullet, very respectable velocity and a decent weight bullet all in a platform that is pretty easily controllable for most folks. In my opinion.

[Mac66]

-Rolling the tire to test shooting a moving target was a good idea. It would have been better had it been rolled directly at him to cause some stress and to better replicate a charging bear. Shooting a fast rolling target that goes by you doesn't really prove anything.

I was thinking the same thing when I watched the video. I was like, if the bear is running past you but not toward you why shoot at it? Only thing he did show was how difficult it can be to hit a moving target although side-to-side is different that straight at you where the target is only getting larger.

-What's with thumb cocking a double action revolver? It's double action for a reason. He failed on that point.

Yeah, that was a big swing and a miss. If something is charging at you there is going to be time to cock the hammer back on each shot. This goes to prove what I was saying above, you have to be able to handle the weapon. I can't help thinking that a plain-Jane 9mm with 147g FMJ's would actually be a better trail gun than a 44 magnum for the majority of people. Not a hunting gun, but a trail gun. How many 9mm shots could the average person get off accurately in the time it would take to get off one .44 (getting it accurately back on target for a follow up shot)? Particularly if you're taking the time to cock the hammer back for each shot. Sure, the 9mm is of course smaller, but I'd be willing to bet you could empty a full double stack magazine of 9mm in the time it would take the average person to fire 2 rounds of .44. Just thinking out loud on this...

-He killed the bear with one shot from a 45 auto he pulled from his pocket. He was successful. Why even bother testing anything else? I guess you could ask what if? What if he had missed the head shot? What if the bear kept coming?

It does seem like .45acp is a very decent choice, +P even better. Which circles back around to thinking 40 S&W is actually a very more-than-decent choice for woods carry. You've got near the capacity of 9mm (which is more than any revolver and most 45's), a good sized bullet, very respectable velocity and a decent weight bullet all in a platform that is pretty easily controllable for most folks. In my opinion.

I'm a firm believer that bigger and heavier is better so the 40 with heavier bullets (180 gr) would work. Same with 9mm 147 gr FMJs. 45 FMJs are even more better. Of course grizzly bears and black bears are different, so more bigger and heavier would be more betterer on griz.

[David]

45 FMJs are even more better.

Now that I'm back into 45acp with the HK USP 45 I'm leaning towards this being my woods carry pistol. I'll need to see if it fits in my Maxpedition Versipak (I keep forgetting to try it out). If it does then great, if not then I'll probably stick with either the USPc40, P2000 in 40 or the Glock 22.