Society breakdown guns

[Mac66]

Let's play a game....

The books I've recently read, Patriots and Expatriots (read my reviews in the Coffeehouse forum) revolve around an economic meltdown in the US and around the world. This causes goods and services to shut down, widespread civil unrest and a compete break down of society. Gangs of commie, cannibal looters roam the countryside. Yeah, kind of a survivalist's wet dream

In the books which were written or based in the 90s the well armed survivalists rely on Colt 1911s, FN/FALS, HK91, M1As (they like 308s) and a smattering of other guns such as Mini 14s & Colt AR15s (for the women). Various other pistols include an occasional Glock, Ruger, Beretta and few others. The bad guys carry SKSs, AKs, ARs. Mini 14s and various other rifles, shotguns and pistols they scrounge from their victims.

Of course, being that there no longer is any law the ARs have all been converted to full auto using auto sears. Oh and one of the guys has a Barrett 50 cal. This particular band of survivalists also has a completely off the grid, self sustaining with solar power, fortified retreat in northern Idaho. Not to mention 300,000 rounds of ammo stashed away. They use single side band CB radios for comms. They have conventional explosives which they made booby traps out of. They also use 70's & 80's era cars and trucks since they are impervious to EMP

Pretty much stuff right out of the Mel Tappen & Kurt Saxon books of the 80s & 90's. If you don't know who those guys are, you been living in a survival cave.

So just for fun, and with the thought that times have changed what would be your recommendation for weapons and equipment for your survival group?

Not asking what you have but what you think you would need to fight off the commie, cannibal hordes?

What rifle?
What pistol?
What comms?
How much ammo?
What other equipment or technology?
Vehicles?
Other thoughts?

[Ronin.45]

If we're truly talking end times and I'm outfitting a group. It's all Glocks and ARs.
The pure simplicity and ease of maintenance on a Glock makes it just about the best possible choice. Not only will it run thousands of rounds with no maintenance, if it ever does need any, it's super easy to repair or replace parts. The internal workings of a Glock are minimalism brought to life.
Specifically, I'd choose the Gen 3 Glock 17 because it's the most common and copied gun in existence these days. Not only has it been around forever and supported by dozens of aftermarket parts companies. It's also been cloned by a dozen manufacturers who make compatible parts and complete guns.
17rds of good 9mm HP ammo is still a hell of a load out even after all these years. It's, by far, the most common pistol round in the world and modern HPs are plenty potent
I'd put good sights on them for easy aiming in most conditions. Something like Night Fision or Ameriglo.

Rifles would be a nice solid AR. It shares many of the best qualities of the glock. Reliable, accurate, easy to maintain. Brand doesn't really matter as long as it's quality. BCM would be good. Decent furniture with mlok rails. I'd put a good cassette style trigger in all of them. Probably go with a 1x prism sight. Most of the benefits of a red dot plus an etched reticle for when batteries are hard to find. Maybe a few with LPVO scopes for DMR type roles. Standard fmj for general use and 77gr otm for DMRs.
A few heavier precision rifles would be good too. Probably 6.5c or equivalent. Maybe Bergara B14s. Remington 700 footprint for parts availability. AICS mag fed. Triggertech diamond triggers. Hornady 140gr ELD match ammo.
If we have to live off the ammo forever, I'd want a stockpile measured in shipping containers, not cases. Probably hundreds of thousands at the minimum. A well stocked reloading room would be welcome too.

[Mac66]

Pistols...
I don't think you can go wrong with a Glock in 9mm. Maybe a Glock 22 with 9mm conversion barrel, just because it's a bit more versatile and that's what I have. Everybody in the group gets a Glock for commonality of ammo, parts and mags.

Pistol 2- probably a 22 like a TX22 or Keltec P17 both of which come with a threaded barrel for a suppressor. I can see them being useful for pests, hunting, sentry elimination etc. Suppressors are pretty easy to improvise (pop bottle) particularly for 22s.

Rifles
#1-Yup an AR15 for everyone in the group.

#2-Something in 308 for long range sniping and/or hunting. Could be either a bolt gun or a battle rifle which would serve both purposes. I think ammo would be more common for a 308 than some of the other calibers and because I have several cases of military type stuff bought when it was cheaper. Not to mention hunting with 308 for 50+ years.

#3-22 rifle, again with a threaded bbl. for suppressor use. Varmint control, hunting etc.

Shotgun
Mossberg 500 with 18" bbl for SD/HD and a longer barrel for hunting. The nice thing about shotguns is they are easy to reload and you can load just about anything into the shells. Very versatile.

Optional
PCC that uses mags common to the main pistol, i.e, Glock mags

One thing not mentioned in the books is the use of suppressors. My son informs me that ATF approval is taking just a week now. If you didn't want to get on their list it might be prudent to stock up on oil filters and solvent traps. Completely legal to own and they make passable suppressors should the rule of law collapse.

[Ronin.45]

I agree wholeheartedly on suppressors. Everything besides the Glocks should be suppressed. Make the standard ARs 11.5" and put cans on them. DMRs can be 16-18" with the same cans. Plenty of good options from lots of companies nowadays. Probably go with a multi-cal option to keep things interchangeable between platforms.
Having a few Glocks set up for suppressor use would be good, but for general sidearms, unsuppressed makes way more sense.
A selection of suppressed rimfires would be imminently useful for all kinds of things.
I'd suggest Tippmann M4-22 rifles because they are the best rimfire carbines I've ever played with. Way more reliable than my 10/22s with better accuracy. Manual of arms is identical to ARs for convenience. Many of the parts are also interchangeable. A stash of the few proprietary parts would keep them running for a long time.
I think I'd go Ruger for pistols. The all metal MKIVs are pretty bulletproof. I like the durability over some of the newer, plastic options. I love my TXs, but the construction doesn't give me 100k round confidence. Plenty of aftermarket Ruger support for parts and upgrades too.
A bolt gun for ultimate quiet is never a bad idea either. Bergara B14r give some crossover with the centerfire rifles in parts and accessories. It's also a ridiculously accurate gun so it would be a great choice.

[Mac66]

Other technology....In the books they converted their ARs to full auto using auto sears, full break down in society so no more laws.

- Not sure whether you would need full auto or it would be just a waste of valuable ammo. On the other hand, the bad guys would probably go there so having the ability for suppressing fire wouldn't be a bad thing.

There are better and easier things available these days than the old auto-sear. One of them is called the Super Safety which replaces the regular AR safety with a push button safety. It can be made from a steel pin and a dremel tool or 3D printed. The plans are open source. Currently legal because it is a trigger reset device, but am pretty sure the ATF will come down on it. Google Super Safety, there are vids on youtube

[Bmyers]

Well if we are fighting off hordes,

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As far as vehicle, something like this should do

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As far as additional equipment, I think this will do

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Now you did say I didn't have to own any of the items. Yet, I figure if I'm going up against a horde of cannibals, I want lots of firepower.

In a more realistic scenario, I believe the first weapon is a good pistol. I am a Glock fan and for some of the facts stated in other post that is what I would select. The reason the pistol is important, easy to carry, easy to conceal, and doesn't draw attention to yourself.

If things are that bad that armed gangs are going around, then the AR 556 style rifle would be my choice of rifle for some of those in my merry band. Although, I'm a huge fan of PCC rifles in the same caliber as your pistol and using the same mags. Most PCC can easily be used by any shooter and have effective range of 100 yards. Most shooters are less effective than the rifle. I would say most in the group would be served well by a 9mm pistol and PCC in the same caliber and using the same mags. This would give most the best opportunity to be proficient with the tools they have and only require to maintain one ammo type and if you go with 9mm, it is a very common in the US and around the world. Plus, if you reload, you have the ability to restock as long as you supplies hold out.

A 12 gauge shotgun is a must in any group. The versatility of the shotgun makes it such a valuable tool. Although harder for some to use and wouldn't want everyone carrying them, they have their place in any group. I like pump shotguns for their simplicity and reliability. My preference would be the Mossberg 500, just because that is what I'm the most familiar with.

Having radios is a huge advantage to any group due to the ability to coordinating movements. Although, I have a feeling that most brands that is sold online would not hold up long term and that the traditional runner would the communication that many would end up using.

Yet, as long as I get the original three items on my list above, I think my group will be able to give them a good fight.

[Mac66]

Communications;
One of the things that surprised me in the books is that none of the survival group were ham operators. They didn't even have a receiver that picked up ham radio. It's pretty easy to get a Technician license these days. It would be worth while to play around with ham radio.

Not to mention everyone should have a shortwave radio.

Second best thing to Ham radio is the emergence of GMRS. Baofeng radios are cheap and afford short range comms. How long they would last is debatable. I don't use mine very often but they are 10 years old. An alternative is to buy Kenwood or other brand walkie talkies and program them to GMRS freqs. On the other hand Baofengs are so cheap you could buy 10 of them for what a good brand would cost and just toss them when they break down. I mean what would last longer one $200 radio or 10 $20 radios? Baofengs are also programmable for ham, business and marine radio freqs.

It you wanted to use repeaters for longer distance it would be worth getting a GMRS license which is good for everybody in your family. Maybe even set up your own repeater. I think they're $35/10 years now. But free in the apocalypse.

Another advantage is that they are compatible with cheap bubble pack FRS/GMRS radios. Low powered, short distance radios have some advantage in some situations in that they have limited range so they can't be listened to by others a long way off. We use GMRS when out 4 wheeling on the ORV trails. So do a lot of other people.

I may have mentioned Meshtastic in another forum. Basically it is a low powered but long range open source encrypted radio texting device you use with your cell phone. Basically a circuit board, antenna and battery that allows you highly encrypted texts between people in your group using a phone app You don't have to have cell service or internet to use it. You can also set up repeater nodes to expand coverage. You do not need internet or cell service to use Meshtastic.

They used CB Radio in the books...guess I'm going to have to drag out my old CB radios and magnet antenna from the 80s to see what's still going on there. I would guess that it's still as crazy as ever. I never got into single side band.

[tom mac]

willing to share a CW mp3 format lessons..... got a bunch.
almost like encrypted as most people don't get it

also some tube receivers/transmitters

[Mac66]

More stuff:

In the books they had a guy who bought explosives and blasting caps surreptitiously and made booby traps and homemade claymore mines to fight the gangs of looters.

Black powder is an explosive, smokeless powder is a propellent. While black powder is available for shooters its kind of a low end explosive. It would work for booby traps etc.

Binary Explosives: Binaries are made up of two components that when mixed together create an explosive. The nice thing about binaries is that neither of the components is regulated. They are completely legal to buy, ship, transport and use.

The most common types of binaries are ammonia nitrate & fuel oil i.e ANFO (which was used to take down the Oklahoma federal bldg). Ammonia nitrate & Aluminum powder which is what Tannerite (exploding targets) is, and ammonia nitrate & nitro-methane AKA Kin-e-pak* The problem with binaries is that they are relatively insensitive. That makes them safe to handle but difficult to set off. You need a blasting cap or det cord to set them off.

Blasting caps and det/prima cord are regulated by the ATF and are a pain to get licensed for. I know, I tried.

Tannerite exploding targets are probably the most well known binary. Once mixed they can be set off with a high powered rifle shot. There are videos on you tube on how to make your own that can be set off by a 22lr. It probably would be prudent to buy or make some Tannerite type binaries. Not to mention those dang beaver dams are back . Going to have to check that out.

Edited to add....It looks like tannerite can be set off with a 22. Probably could set up a booby trap that shoots/triggers a 22 into it

Kinepak- is an AN/Nitro Methane binary which I've used on beaver dams up at my property. I went to an explosives class in Arkansas back in the 90s, bought a bunch of Kinepak and then set about getting license to buy and use blasting caps. 9 months later I was still waiting for the paperwork to clear so I instead hired a guy with a license to come and attach the caps to the kinepak and set it off.

The components to make binaries are completely unregulated. Once mixed they become and explosive which is legal to do and legal to use. You just can't legally transport it once it's made into an explosive. So make it and use and you're good to go.

I would guess that somewhere on the world wide web there are instructions on how to make your own blasting caps. Not mention you can probably still find some of the books on booby traps, Poor Man's James Bond, books by Kurt Saxon, Ragnar Benson etc, etc.

Something to think about when TEOTWAWKI happens.

*you can buy ammonia nitrate, aluminum powder, and nitro methane online

[Mac66]

Vehicles:
In the books the survival group all had 70's & 80's era trucks and cars because they weren't affected by EMP. Interestingly they were Mustangs and Broncos and various makes of pick up truck. Presumably they are talking about the "big Broncos" and not the Bronco IIs, or the original 60's era Bronco. I had an '88 Bronco which was pretty fun but I broke it off roading enough times that it wasn't worth fixing. It was pretty rusty and falling apart when I scrapped it. Not sure a 40 or 50 year old vehicle would be worth it these days.

Tests have shown that most modern cars and trucks are EMP resistant. They may shut down but most restarted once their electronics reset. I think just about any modern vehicle would be okay but 4 wheel drive would be better. I would also like something with enough room to haul lots of stuff and powerful enough to tow trailers. A 4 wheel drive pick up truck would work well which is what I have. On the other hand a small(er) 4x4 SUV would get better gas mileage and of course there's always Jeeps and other off road capable vehicles.

There was some suggestion that a diesel powered vehicle since you can burn just about anything in a diesel including diesel, kerosene, jet fuel, cooking oil or combinations of them.

I suppose electric cars (or bicycle) would have some value if you had a way to charge them i.e, solar, wind generators or some other genset with adequate fuel sources. Would an all electric vehicle be sensitive to EMP? I don't know.

Overlooked in the books were bicycles-a good way to move around over long distances quietly and can carry a lot more stuff than walking as well. The Viet Cong moved mountains of stuff on the Ho Chi Minh trail using bikes.

Not mentioned in the books and often overlooked were motorcycles except for biker gangs on Harleys. ATVs, UTVs, scooters, motorized bicycles were not mentioned. Small vehicles use less gas and get you where you want to go. Small motorcycles and other 2 wheel vehicles can go through, around or be lifted over obstacles that would stop 4 wheel vehicles. They fit down narrow paths as well. Outriders riding MCs, scooters or even bikes could be used to scout ahead.

In the One Second After books the main character drives a '59 Edsel till all the gas runs out. Seems like it would have been more efficient if he drove (when he had to get around) a scooter, motorcycle, mini bikes, ATV etc. Heck even a gas powered golf cart would have been better.

My alternative vehicles these days are bicycles, ATVs and off road adult mini bikes. The gas mini bikes are simple pull start machines and are low and relatively slow (about 30 mph) but fun and handy to ride. Not to mention getting about 50 mpg.

I also have a 25hp diesel tractor and about 100 gallons of fuel stored for it.

I have about 50 gallons of gasoline stored. At one time I had over 200 gallons but have whittled away at it. I'd like to get back to that amount or more as well as more diesel.