Survival and Emergency Preparedness

I made this post on another board in regards to EDC firearms and ammo capacity. We've briefly discussed this a while back, on the old board but I wanted to toss it on here for discussion.

A few years before I retired our agency conducted an off-duty carry combat course. You used your authorized off-duty weapon in a series of combat drills derived from actual off-duty situations from around the country i.e. drills were taken from real life situations that off-duty Officers/Deputies/Troopers had faced. Active shooter situations in big box retail stores, hostage situations, lone wolf terrorist attack, moving, running, barricades etc.

One thing became apparent rather quickly, capacity does matter. Yes, many stats floating around of 2 shots per average gun fight. The validity of those stats should be taken with a grain of salt. And often they only consider two people involved rather than multiple attackers. I went through the course with two of the Deputies on my shift. I used an HK P30sk with a 10-round mag with +2 base plate in the pistol and a 15-round P30 mag as my spare mag. Our agency 'strenuously' encouraged carrying a spare back up mag. One of my buddies carried a G26 with 10-round mags and G19 back up mag. My other buddy carried a Walther PPS with, IIRC, a 7-shot mag in the pistol and 7-round back up mag. Halfway through the course he stated that he needed to qualify with a different pistol. He ended up later qualifying with a G19.

The reason was simple, higher capacity is better than lower capacity. And yes, lots of real world gun fights only require a small number of rounds fired. But some don't. Since you don't get to pick and choose which kind you might find yourself in it's best to 'hope for the best and prepare for the worst' with the caveat that it needs to be within reason.

For me, the Sig P365 with 12-round magazine in the pistol and a 12-round mag as a spare is a nice compromise of size, weight, thickness, comfort and capacity. It's small, but I've trained with it and have confidence in my ability to use it. It was my authorized off-duty the last year or two of my career. Also in my carry rotation (for when I just feel like a change) is my G26 with G19 mag and Xgrip and spare G19 mag, HK P30sk with 12-round mag and 15-round spare mag or HK USPc in 40 S&W with 12-round mag and 12-round spare. I'll carry a third spare mag in my EDC sling bag. It's not as readily accessible but it's small/light enough to simply toss in the bag I'm going to have with me anyway. So for me, 12+1 rounds immediately accessible in the pistol is pretty much my lowest acceptable capacity. And all of those pistols, with the exception of the USPc were my authorized off-duty carry pistol at one time or another so I'm well trained with them. As far as the USPc, it's about the same size as the G19 and G23 I've also carried off-duty in years past. So I have confidence in my ability to use the USPc even though it wasn't my 'official' off-duty carry at any time (I actually didn't buy it until after I retired).

Now I will carry my LCP 380acp around the house/yard or on those rare occasions where I'm all dressed up and pocket carry is pretty much the only viable option. That's where the mantra of 'it's better to have a small pistol of limited capacity than no pistol at all' comes into play. But I'll carry a spare mag in an Ammo Armor case in my pocket. Is it ideal? No. But it does allow me to be armed when other choices aren't as practical.

Everyone has to decide how many rounds they are comfortable with. If you are willing to carry a big gun that holds 15 or more, that's great. If you want to carry a spare magazine, even better. I know some folks carry a kel-tec sub2000 in their backpack with happy sticks. If it makes them happy then it's great.
Personal lifestyles and general levels of paranoia make each of us different. Someone who lives in Detroit or Miami might feel the need for more rounds on tap. Someone from Billings or Bisbee might feel fine with a 5 shot .38.
I carry a G43 with flush fit 6rd mag. In my rural/suburban existence it is plenty and knowing how to shoot it makes me feel very comfortable anywhere I usually go.

I pretty much carry a LC9 or now my LC9s Pro with an extra 9 round mag. I am less likely to become involved in a shooting situation as a civilian than I was as an off duty cop. For example I would not become involved in an active shooter situation as a regular citizen where I might have intervened as a off duty cop. But more ammo is always better than not enough.

Don't carry less than 10 rounds ( 99% of time )... and a spare mag in the vehicle.

In past, twice I have thought of pulling my gun, In those cases it was 3 or more subjects. So 10 is the min.

PS... yes, sometimes better to be a good witness over getting involved and putting yrself in danger.

Ronin.45 wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 9:29 pm I know some folks carry a kel-tec sub2000 in their backpack with happy sticks.

One of the nice things about the Sub 2K is that you can put it in a backpack if you needed/wanted to. I can fit mine in a racquetball bag which makes for easy transport back and forth to the vehicle. At one time it was my trunk gun but lately it's been in the house (both the Sub 2K's). My thoughts are that if I'm taking a road trip I can easily toss it in the vehicle for any JIC situations without taking up much room or being conspicuous. And although I don't envision myself just walking around with it, I could if the situation called for it while still being grey man about it.

Personal lifestyles and general levels of paranoia make each of us different. Someone who lives in Detroit or Miami might feel the need for more rounds on tap. Someone from Billings or Bisbee might feel fine with a 5 shot .38.

Definitely. It can be very situational depending on several factors, including locale. When my brother lived out on his 26 acres out in BFE a 5-shot .38 or Taurus Judge was his constant companion when out of the house. Although a lot of folks feel the Judge is useless, he loved that revolver and used it to dispatch quite a few varmints on the property. Personally, I would have opted for a higher capacity option as 'help' would be a long way away. But that was his level of comfort and he was well versed with revolvers because he was a CO with the state for many years and (like me) started his career carrying a revolver.

Mac66 wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 7:41 am But more ammo is always better than not enough.

That's how I feel, within reason of course. I remember that guy on GT in the prep section years ago, Long Gun or something like that. I had a thread years ago about what folks carried, if anything while out hiking. I remember his response was a suppressed G20 with 8 spare magazines. I thought that was a little excessive. He explained there were meth labs in the area. My thought was I'd be hiking somewhere else, lol.

It's really only the last maybe 5 or 6 years I've been carrying a spare mag. Whether I was carrying my G17, G19 or G23 I guess I felt what was in the pistol was sufficient. Then the agency began a push to encourage the carrying of a spare mag. I thought about it from the perspective of an instructor, since I was one with the agency, and it made sense. In the advent of a malfunction it would be hard to do a mag change if you didn't have a mag to change to and of course the extra capacity didn't hurt either. So now carrying a second magazine is just as much habit as the pistol itself. And having really good mag holders is a plus. In that regard, all my mag holders are from Kytex Shooting Gear.

Mac66 wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 7:41 am For example I would not become involved in an active shooter situation as a regular citizen where I might have intervened as a off duty cop.

Same. I have no illusions about charging into the fray just to be a hero. That is situational of course and events could dictate that you have to take some sort of action i.e. loved one is in imminent danger, you're in imminent danger etc.

tom mac wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 8:40 am In past, twice I have thought of pulling my gun, In those cases it was 3 or more subjects. So 10 is the min

These situations are ones I've considered heavily. First, as I mentioned, that off-duty weapon combat course was an eye-opener. Not all the scenarios were run-n-gun multiple attackers, but some were. And they had been taken from real life situations so somewhere, someone had faced those types of threats. That made an impact on me. If it did happen to someone it could happen to someone.

Like Mac, I felt fairly comfortable when I carried my LC9s with 7+1 rounds in the mag and an additional 7 rounds in the spare. But I stress...'fairly' comfortable because at that time I was use to carrying my G26 (which was my authorized off duty at that time) with G19 mag and Xgrip which gave me 15+1 in the pistol and a spare 15 on the belt. So my capacity was cut in half. The LC9s was a lot more comfortable though so it was a give-n-take compromise. With the P365 getting the bugs worked out I'm almost back up to that original capacity with 12+1 and 12 spare.

As I type this I've just come back in from watering the garden. I've got my little LCP in my pocket and actually no spare. So I've got 6+1 rounds of .380 total. However, being at home means other options are only a few steps away.

Usually just 8 in my PPS. Generally have spares, but rarely loaded, less often on me.

Never ran out of ammo in a fight though. But...

Gun > No gun
More ammo > Less ammo
Bigger cal > Smaller caliber
More mags > 1 mag

We can debate the order of importance and 8v9v10v21 rounds etc....but I think the BIG difference (98%) comes on that first one - Gun v No Gun.

As I type this, I've got my USP9mm w/ 15rds Mexican tucked into my swim trunks w/ 15rds of SOCOM 124+p waterproof JHP and am going to jump in the pool.

Bob wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 1:26 pm As I type this, I've got my USP9mm w/ 15rds Mexican tucked into my swim trunks w/ 15rds of SOCOM 124+p waterproof JHP and am going to jump in the pool.

As I read this, two things immediately come to mind; first, you're going to sink straight to the bottom with the USP in your trunks. Second, next time we get together I'd like to compare your USP with my USPc to see the actual size difference.

Magazine capacity is what drove my purchase of a P365. (Which I picked up today, and shot, and am happy with.) The more I considered things I could not justify me getting a G43. All other things considered and equal but if one has more bullets, more bullets wins.

ratf51 wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 4:33 pm Magazine capacity is what drove my purchase of a P365. (Which I picked up today, and shot, and am happy with.) The more I considered things I could not justify me getting a G43. All other things considered and equal but if one has more bullets, more bullets wins.

Glad to hear you like your P365. I’m really not a Sig guy but will give credit where it’s due. They really hit it out of the ball park.

Current price-spike not withstanding, during normal times the single stack 9mm niche is pretty heavily saturated with good choices. Ruger LC9s, S&W Shield, Walter PPS, Taurus G2’s, Glock 43 and some others. This has, again during normal times, driven the prices down for the most part. Glock is still on the upper end price wise but the others are sub-$300 and some are right at or even under $200. Because there is a lot of competition with the sub-compact single-stacks. While the P365 competes in that market it also competes against other double-stack sub-compacts. I’d love to see other companies come out with more of a direct competitor to the P365, like the Hellcat. To get more direct competition i.e. higher capacity sub-compact 9mm. That would drive down the price in that niche and give more options.

With the increase rioting, looting, killings, assaults and flash mobs that have recently sky rocketed, has your (anyone) rethought how much ammunition would be prudent?