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Rem UMC vs Win White Box
#1


Governmental dependance makes for poor self reliance.

"What could possibly go wrong with a duct tape boat?"  Cody Lundin

The best defense against evil men are good men with violent skill sets.
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#2
Looks like the Remington UMC 115 JHP makes a very economical round that is actually decent-to-good. This helps confirm the results in another UMC 115 JHP video I posted earlier in this section. The velocity is advertised at 1145, presumably out of a 4-5 inch barrel. Looking at the ballistics-by-the-inch website for comparison purposes, the UMC 115 is likely to get pumped up to around 1300 fps in the 16 inch barreled Sub 2K. Perhaps a tad more.

So the question becomes; if the UMC 115 is pumped up to around 1300 fps will it still penetrate sufficiently? All of the rounds in the video did exceed the 12 inch minimum, particularly through clothing.
Governmental dependance makes for poor self reliance.

"What could possibly go wrong with a duct tape boat?"  Cody Lundin

The best defense against evil men are good men with violent skill sets.
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#3
(08-23-2018, 12:21 PM)David Wrote: Looks like the Remington UMC 115 JHP makes a very economical round that is actually decent-to-good.  This helps confirm the results in another UMC 115 JHP video I posted earlier in this section.  The velocity is advertised at 1145, presumably out of a 4-5 inch barrel.  Looking at the ballistics-by-the-inch website for comparison purposes, the UMC 115 is likely to get pumped up to around 1300 fps in the 16 inch barreled Sub 2K.  Perhaps a tad more.  

So the question becomes;  if the UMC 115 is pumped up to around 1300 fps will it still penetrate sufficiently?  All of the rounds in the video did exceed the 12 inch minimum, particularly through clothing.

There doesn't seem to be a big difference between the cheaper offerings and the premium rounds.  I thought the WWB did pretty good as well.  I tend to favor heavier if not bigger rounds.
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#4
The WWB 147 JHP is something I've been considering for the Sub 2K.  I'm like you in that I prefer heavy-for-caliber most of the time.  I use 124+P GD mainly because it's issued.  But I don't have a ton of it.  Probably less than 100 rounds total give or take.  I use the Rem UMC 115 JHP for my wife's LC9s since it's a standard pressure round and easier for her to shoot.  So far it looks to be more than adequate, inexpensive and locally available in 100 round value packs.  I like that.  The Win USA 147 JHP is also available at all of my local Walmarts in 50 round boxes.  It's a bit more than the Rem.  Rem UMC for the 100 round value pack is around $34 out the door.  The Win USA is around $23 out the door for a 50 round box.  A bit of a difference even in the economy line between the two.  

Using ballistics by the inch as a reference, the UMC 115 is rated at 1145 in a pistol and is likely to be around 1300 fps (or perhaps even a tad more) in the Sub 2K.  The Win USA 147 is rated at 990 fps in a pistol.  Using the Fed Hydra-Shok 147 as a near comparison it is 1086 fps out of the Sub 2K.   So ballpark a 75-100 fps increase.  

I would be inclined to 'assume' that the Rem UMC 115 at 1300 fps 'may' fragment or otherwise under-penetrate (less than 12 inches).  I don't 'know' that, just an assumption.  I would also be inclined to think that the velocity increase on the Win USA 147 may be enough to help it mushroom better overall while still giving it adequate penetration.  I may have posted this video before...





Out of a 5 inch barrel it penetrated 15.5 inches and the expansion, although not a full mushroom, wasn't bad at all.  So would an extra 75-100 fps help it more fully mushroom while still penetrating enough?  Again, I'd be inclined to thing so just judging on the information presented.

Either choice for the Sub 2K could do very well I'm sure.  The Rem UMC is by far the economical choice whereas the Win USA may be the best overall performer at that barrel length.  Of course I haven't checked the Win USA in the Sub 2K for function so it may or may not be a moot point.  IIRC I did run Rem UMC though the Sub 2K and so far I haven't had any issues with any round fired.  May have to pick up a box or two of the Win USA and simply test out functionality.
Governmental dependance makes for poor self reliance.

"What could possibly go wrong with a duct tape boat?"  Cody Lundin

The best defense against evil men are good men with violent skill sets.
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#5
I'd be surprised if the Rem UMC failed at only 1300fps(or even a little higher). That should not exceed the operational window of the bullet.
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#6
You think it would still get at least 12 inches of penetration in gel through denim?
Governmental dependance makes for poor self reliance.

"What could possibly go wrong with a duct tape boat?"  Cody Lundin

The best defense against evil men are good men with violent skill sets.
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#7
A video to add to the discussion:





The 124 fragmented and only penetrated about 9 inches in bare gel.  Through four layers of denim it penetrated close to 13 inches.
Governmental dependance makes for poor self reliance.

"What could possibly go wrong with a duct tape boat?"  Cody Lundin

The best defense against evil men are good men with violent skill sets.
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#8
I like the HST. If I was buying defensive ammo it would be the 124gr +p HST.

Back when I was building my AR-9 pistol my FFL had a number of PSA 9mm uppers. He had them in a 7", 9", 11.5", 14.5", and 16" barrels. We were doing some testing and I was using a hot 124gr HydraShok for the tests - it was half way between the recommended normal max load and a +p load. Using my 1911 with a 5" barrel it traveles 1273fps.

The longer the barrel the faster the bullet would travel. The biggest jump in velocity was going from the 9" barrel to the 11.5" barrel. The velocity for the 14.5" and 16" were not that big of a jump. With the 11.5" my bullets were running 1580fps. The 14.5" and 16" were at 1594 and 1606 respectively.

I have a load for the 124gr HS that is 4fps faster than Federal's +p HS specs of 1125FPS (this is off a late 80's box of ammo). In my AR-9 with the 11.5" barrel they are running 1331fps. These HS JHP are being pushed faster than what they were designed for as far as being able to retain their weight and expanding as they should. The faster running HS will send shrapnel off reducing the central mass of the projectile. I should develop a 1200fps load for the AR-9 to get them back into a better operational speed.

My best zombie-apocalypse ammo I have is my coated 124gr RN lead target load for the AR-9. It is a fairly soft lead that I have pushed up to 1600fps. My normal target load is running 1320fps in the AR-9 and it is a fairly light load in my 1911. It has good expansion shooting through water filled milk jugs and does tend to over penetrate with the AR-9.
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#9
(08-23-2018, 08:49 PM)David Wrote: A video to add to the discussion:





The 124 fragmented and only penetrated about 9 inches in bare gel.  Through four layers of denim it penetrated close to 13 inches.

That particular load was pushing 1500fps so it's exceeding the velocity range the bullet was designed for. 1300-1350 should show better weight retention and penetration. 
However, if you are looking for a defensive load, 9" of penetration with that permanent wound cavity is about perfect. Too many people get bogged down in the exact numbers because some agency decided they were "minimum".  No bad guy is laughing off a couple of those HSTs to the chest even if he's over 12" thick.
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#10
Spoke with a tech at both Remington and Winchester on the topic of the Rem UMC 115 JHP/Win USA 147 JHP. They only have data out of a 4 inch barrel so it's speculation when firing out of a 16 inch barrel. The Remington rep suggested that a 124 standard (or +P if the gun was rated for it) would be better than the 115. The Winchester rep felt a bonded bullet would be optimal. So the question of the economical line wasn't directly answered simply because no real world testing has been done.

The standard logic maintains that the Rem UMC 115 at 1300+ fps might fragment and perhaps not meet the 12 inch minimum. However, that may or may not be correct and even if it was correct doesn't mean that it wouldn't still be quite effective. The standard logic on the Win USA 147 JHP indicates that the velocity increase would not be as dramatic as the 115 or 124 but in the words of the Winchester rep the performance 'would be slightly better than out of a pistol length barrel'.

In truth, either would probably suffice.
Governmental dependance makes for poor self reliance.

"What could possibly go wrong with a duct tape boat?"  Cody Lundin

The best defense against evil men are good men with violent skill sets.
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