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DA/SA and/or thumb safety
#11
(07-16-2018, 07:27 PM)Ronin.45 Wrote: I agree that a thumb safety doesn't slow presentation much once you get used to it. However, the vast majority of shooters never get proficient. If you watch enough shooters at matches forget to take the safety off and lose seconds on their first target engagement .

Happened exactly that way to me...

Learned on wheel guns, then in 90s we shifted over to DA only Sigs.
Later in life was gifted a 45acp Colt and in a match forgot the safety. Never was going to carry that gun after that and sold it for another DA/SA Sig.

Muscle memory takes over in many stressful times , and I never had the long term training....
now all my guns are DA/SA
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#12
Let's discuss a couple of the points that have been brought up.  First, forgetting to disengage the safety before firing.  I would submit that is not an error of the design but operator error.  Someone forgetting to disengage the safety at a competition is an issue of improper training.  Possibly due to running different platforms rather than concentrating on one.  And that's competition, which is different from real world shooting.  Not suggesting that competitions don't offer valid cross-over, only that the goal(s) may be different.  An individual concerned solely with personal self defense 'should' be well practiced with the platform they intend to use.  If they don't, again that isn't a deficiency in the design it's laziness on the part of the user.

Secondly, accidentally engaging the the safety during shooting.  In the instances mentioned above, are those 'race' guns?  Are they in anyway modified from the normal 'street' pistol?  I would suggest that they probably are and again, user error or unsafely modifying a platform to 'increase' it's performance for an artificial environment.  I have not ever heard of someone being injured/killed in a real gun fight because they accidentally engaged the safety on their pistol and return/continue fire.  Perhaps it's happened but I have never heard of such an incident.  

Having used DA/SA pistols with thumb safeties I can't ever recall forgetting to disengage the safety because it's simply part of my draw.  Nor can I ever recall accidentally engaging the safety during fire.  But my pistols are normally unmodified except for sights.
Governmental dependance makes for poor self reliance.

"What could possibly go wrong with a duct tape boat?"  Cody Lundin

The best defense against evil men are good men with violent skill sets.
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#13
Watch the video of the recent Las Vegas police shooting. That officer couldn't figure out which hand to hold the gun in. He literally shifted the empty gun to his weak hand, reached across his body with strong hand for mag, then tried to insert mag backwards. Even when he was firing with a solid two hand grip, he put his support thumb behind the slide. Your telling me that people can't screw up a safety?
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#14
(07-17-2018, 07:55 PM)Ronin.45 Wrote: Watch the video of the recent Las Vegas police shooting. That officer couldn't figure out which hand to hold the gun in. He literally shifted the empty gun to his weak hand, reached across his body with strong hand for mag, then tried to insert mag backwards. Even when he was firing with a solid two hand grip, he put his support thumb behind the slide. Your telling me that people can't screw up a safety?

I watched that video, that was impressive. Yes, he struggled with his firearm handling, but in the end, he won the battle. 

I would like to know how much he practices with his firearm and what type of practice he does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_bF7i2_ok4

Link to the video for those that haven't seen it
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#15
(07-17-2018, 08:49 PM)bmyers Wrote:
(07-17-2018, 07:55 PM)Ronin.45 Wrote: Watch the video of the recent Las Vegas police shooting. That officer couldn't figure out which hand to hold the gun in. He literally shifted the empty gun to his weak hand, reached across his body with strong hand for mag, then tried to insert mag backwards. Even when he was firing with a solid two hand grip, he put his support thumb behind the slide. Your telling me that people can't screw up a safety?

I watched that video, that was impressive. Yes, he struggled with his firearm handling, but in the end, he won the battle. 

I would like to know how much he practices with his firearm and what type of practice he does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_bF7i2_ok4

Link to the video for those that haven't seen it

He was victorious and that is the ultimate goal. It just showed how even "trained" professionals can struggle. 
As is often repeated in classes, you revert to the level of your training. Very few people train to any real proficiency so they are going to struggle when the adrenaline starts pumping.
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#16
Can people screw up under stress?  Absolutely.  It's mostly a lack of training.  Years ago during one of the several firearms incidents I've been involved in was having to draw down on a man who had beat the crap out of a woman and then reached under his coat as I challenged him.  My holster was for the Beretta.  I don't recall the brand offhand has this was probably around 15 years ago.  But the draw process involved a lever on the inside of the holster that had to be manually switched to the rear using the draw hand thumb.  Then a separate lever in front of the first one had to be pushed down and rotated forward.  So this involved the thumb moving rearward, then forward, then downward then forward in order to then draw the weapon.  I had practiced it umpteen times during my down time.  Not always a full draw, but at least partially clearing the weapon from the holster.  When it came time to draw down on the drunk idiot I was out of the holster and on him before I even realized I had started the task.  Now to emphasis;  I'm not Mr. Awesome with super powers.  But I had invested the time necessary to accomplish a series of movements that go well beyond what one would be considered normal just to draw a weapon and I did it under the stress of an drunk aggressor and a woman bleeding all over the place not to mention the screaming and in the middle of the road with a fire engine inbound for an unrelated call.  

So I just can't see a thumb safety as being any special ordeal for anyone serious about their chosen platform.

In regards to the Officer in the video;  sometimes people win/survive despite themselves.  Can I comment on his training or lack thereof?  Not really, I don't know their training schedule.  Is the average Officer/Deputy/Trooper/Agent a proficient 'gun guy'?  Sadly, no.  And too be seriously straight-forward about it, I hold it against them if they can't take the time to be EXTREMELY proficient with a critical tool.  Their in the wrong career field.
Governmental dependance makes for poor self reliance.

"What could possibly go wrong with a duct tape boat?"  Cody Lundin

The best defense against evil men are good men with violent skill sets.
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