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DA/SA and/or thumb safety
#1




I'm not set up yet to make the transition, but at some point I may move over to the HK P30SK V3 with thumb safety I purchased a few weeks back.  I still install night sights which I prefer on my firearms as well as chose a holster that I really like.  Some of the reasons in the video mirror some of my thoughts.

In the past month or so on GT the conversation of manual thumb safeties has come up.  Many people of course don't care for or use them.  And that's fine.  One of the often used mantras is 'keep your finger off the trigger'.  And that is good advice of course, however it doesn't address at least a fairly large part of the issue i.e. AD/ND during holstering.  The recent video I shared of the gentleman that shot himself while AIWB with his Glock 43 illustrates that point.  He wasn't clowning around or acting foolishly.  He 'looked' the gun into the holster.  He keep his finger clear of the trigger.  And he shot himself.  Had that firearm been a DA the accident may have been avoided.  Had that firearm been a DA with a thumb safety that was engaged the accident would definitely have been avoided.  

Doesn't mean striker-fired guns suck or that they shouldn't be carried.  Only that striker-fired guns have a higher propensity to have an AD/ND during the reholstering process i.e. the well known 'Glock leg'.  

This of course isn't the opinion of everyone and I respect that.  Just musing my own thoughts.
Governmental dependance makes for poor self reliance.

"What could possibly go wrong with a duct tape boat?"  Cody Lundin

The best defense against evil men are good men with violent skill sets.
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#2
V1 forever.....
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#3
The "if he only" argument is kind of silly when talking about the guy who shot himself with his 43. If he only had a DA. If he only had a thumb safety. The real "if he only" is if he only checked to see if the holster was clear. This is a very common issue in competition. Over the course of a match, the undershirt can be dislodged by repeated draws and contortions. It will hang into an open holster and be forced in if you shove the gun hard enough. It's the job of the shooter and the RO to notice such things. You must be cognizant of your safety at all times. I would never carry an inferior gun just to add layers of safety against my own laziness.
No matter what gun or holster you choose, safety should be a constant.
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#4
(07-12-2018, 11:27 PM)Ronin.45 Wrote: The "if he only" argument is kind of silly when talking about the guy who shot himself with his 43. If he only had a DA. If he only had a thumb safety. The real "if he only" is if he only checked to see if the holster was clear. 

Perhaps the undershirt wasn't in the holster until he started inserting the G43 and was dragged in, obviously without his realization.  Simple enough mistake for anyone.  

Quote:I would never carry an inferior gun just to add layers of safety against my own laziness.

What do you mean by inferior gun?  That a DA and/or DA/SA is inferior to a striker fired pistol?  That HK is inferior to Glock?  Not sure what you're saying?

And I don't know if I would classify it as laziness.  Or acting foolhardy.  And surely after the stress of an actual shooting the risk potential goes even higher to not notice possible obstructions in the holster.  There is some precedent for that.
Governmental dependance makes for poor self reliance.

"What could possibly go wrong with a duct tape boat?"  Cody Lundin

The best defense against evil men are good men with violent skill sets.
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#5
(07-12-2018, 10:58 PM)Bob Wrote: V1 forever.....

I have to say that the P30SK that I had in V1 LEM had a sweet trigger!
Governmental dependance makes for poor self reliance.

"What could possibly go wrong with a duct tape boat?"  Cody Lundin

The best defense against evil men are good men with violent skill sets.
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#6
(07-13-2018, 01:01 AM)David Wrote:
(07-12-2018, 11:27 PM)Ronin.45 Wrote: The "if he only" argument is kind of silly when talking about the guy who shot himself with his 43. If he only had a DA. If he only had a thumb safety. The real "if he only" is if he only checked to see if the holster was clear. 

Perhaps the undershirt wasn't in the holster until he started inserting the G43 and was dragged in, obviously without his realization.  Simple enough mistake for anyone.  

Quote:I would never carry an inferior gun just to add layers of safety against my own laziness.

What do you mean by inferior gun?  That a DA and/or DA/SA is inferior to a striker fired pistol?  That HK is inferior to Glock?  Not sure what you're saying?

And I don't know if I would classify it as laziness.  Or acting foolhardy.  And surely after the stress of an actual shooting the risk potential goes even higher to not notice possible obstructions in the holster.  There is some president for that.

I replied to this yesterday, but it must not have gone through. 

I agree that the shirt may not have been in the holster until he started the gun in. This shows why a loose undershirt does not pair well with carrying. If it's flopping loose, it can hinder your draw as much as reholstering. Anyone needs to be extra careful whatever carry method they choose.

As for triggers, the DA/SA is defnitely inferior to striker fired. SAO is also generally inferior except for specific applications. For a competition or defensive handgun a consistent, short trigger pull without any encumbrance is the best. You want to be able to bring your weapon into action instantaneously without worry of a manual safety or heavy initial trigger pull. If you look at any serious competition, the weapons will be a good indicator of what the best options currently are. Unless someone is specifically sponsored by a company and forced to shoot their gun, you'll see very few DA/SA guns. The most common guns are Glocks outside of the racier divisions where the 2011s and SA CZs dominate. Much like cars where racing proves what works and the tech trickles down to regular cars, competition is where weapons are really tested.

I started out with HKs and admit to buying into the hype. After shooting them for several years, and dealing with their shortcomings, I moved on. They are a solid weapon for sure, but are not the pinnacle they claim to be.
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#7
(07-13-2018, 01:03 AM)David Wrote:
(07-12-2018, 10:58 PM)Bob Wrote: V1 forever.....

I have to say that the P30SK that I had in V1 LEM had a sweet trigger!

You know, anyone I know who ever used the LEM triggers, did not like them initially, and then really came to love them.
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#8
(07-14-2018, 04:26 PM)Ronin.45 Wrote: As for triggers, the DA/SA is defnitely inferior to striker fired. SAO is also generally inferior except for specific applications. For a competition or defensive handgun a consistent, short trigger pull without any encumbrance is the best. You want to be able to bring your weapon into action instantaneously without worry of a manual safety or heavy initial trigger pull. If you look at any serious competition, the weapons will be a good indicator of what the best options currently are. Unless someone is specifically sponsored by a company and forced to shoot their gun, you'll see very few DA/SA guns. The most common guns are Glocks outside of the racier divisions where the 2011s and SA CZs dominate. Much like cars where racing proves what works and the tech trickles down to regular cars, competition is where weapons are really tested.

My first semi-auto carry was a DA/SA with a thumb safety.  That's what I trained for and got used to at that time.  I understand your comparison with competition and I think it may be a valid comparison to an extent.  But I would also say that they are trying to maximize their efficiency in every area possible and in some cases that may not carry over to CCW carry.  With CCW carry in mind, maximizing overall safety is a valid consideration.  Right now I carry my G26 and feel safe doing so.  But I would also argue that carrying a DA/SA with or without a thumb safety is inherently safer overall, particularly during reholstering.  

As far as a thumb safety, I know it isn't in vogue to like one.  It isn't considered 'high speed/low drag'.  But I'll also argue that it is a gross motor skill that, with training, adds no time to the initial draw and thus doesn't negatively effect the draw.  I've mentioned elsewhere that moving the index finger from along side the gun to the trigger and then pulling the trigger is a more complex set of manual dexterity skills than sweeping the safety down during the draw with the thumb.  Yet I haven't ever heard of someone not being able to find the trigger or pull it under stress.  And again, it adds another layer of safety of the other end during holstering.
Governmental dependance makes for poor self reliance.

"What could possibly go wrong with a duct tape boat?"  Cody Lundin

The best defense against evil men are good men with violent skill sets.
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#9
I agree that a thumb safety doesn't slow presentation much once you get used to it. However, the vast majority of shooters never get proficient. If you watch enough shooters at matches forget to take the safety off and lose seconds on their first target engagement or accidentally bump it on during recoil and take a few seconds to realize why the gun stopped working, you understand how even a gross motor skill can be trouble once adrenaline kicks in. That's relatively experienced shooters too.
Most people struggle with a DA trigger pull and can miss the target entirely with the first shot of a DA/SA. Since the only thing that matters in a self defense situation is getting the gun out and shots on target, any hindrance can be too much. People can certainly train to overcome these things, but usually, by the time they get to the level that they've mastered thumb safeties and crappy triggers, they've moved on to striker fired anyway.
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#10
(07-16-2018, 07:27 PM)Ronin.45 Wrote: I agree that a thumb safety doesn't slow presentation much once you get used to it. However, the vast majority of shooters never get proficient. If you watch enough shooters at matches forget to take the safety off and lose seconds on their first target engagement or accidentally bump it on during recoil and take a few seconds to realize why the gun stopped working, you understand how even a gross motor skill can be trouble once adrenaline kicks in. That's relatively experienced shooters too.
Most people struggle with a DA trigger pull and can miss the target entirely with the first shot of a DA/SA. Since the only thing that matters in a self defense situation is getting the gun out and shots on target, any hindrance can be too much. People can certainly train to overcome these things, but usually, by the time they get to the level that they've mastered thumb safeties and crappy triggers, they've moved on to striker fired anyway.

Last Thursday night, I watched that happen. Guy was on his third target, gun stopped, he racked the slide and ejected a round, still nothing, racked it again, nothing, he then realized he had bumped on his safety, he said a few choice words and then continued on.
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