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The Pistol Caliber Carbine Thread
#1
So, I'm a fan of 9mm.  And, I'm a fan of the .357 lever for all sorts of reasons.  But mostly, pistol calibers from a ~16 barrel just have a certain extra zip, zing and oomph about them.  Given a good shot, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a deer with the 20" .357 at maybe a hundred yards. Or - a great gun for indoors vs a rifle caliber, or just plinking zombies at suburban distances.

The P-cal carbine just really puts the needed power and range on pistol calibers.  So, my options are buy a .357 pistol (never a bad idea - 6" for target/Indoor/hunt and snub for conceal/bug out emergency .38 or .357...)

Or - what I should really do, go with my "deep" caliber.  That means 9mm.  So let's talk about the various platforms.  Tell me your experience, thoughts, or heck - just plain speculate!
  • IWI UZI (or some variation) - Built like a tank, a classic for years in desert combat.  Heavy...
  • MP5 - Stupid expensive even for a clone.  
  • High Point - Cheap as dirt, available in your choice of colors and Glock mag configs
  • Kel-Tec Sub2000 - Ultra compact, concealable, small.
  • Baretta CX4 Storm - Sleek, modern, ergo, reliable.  Obviously works well with PX4
  • Just Right/Etc - dedicated 9mm AR "style"
  • Actual AR in 9mm - expensive but super customizable
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#2
Well, I have an UZI carbine, It is an iconic design and is fun to shoot. It is over engineered as a semi auto.

I would suggest adding the new Ruger PC Carbine to your list since it used Glock mags and takes down. Been on sale recently for $500.
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#3
I have a JRC. In 9mm, glock style. Had it a few years and it's been a lot of fun. 100 yards would be as far as I would want to go, 50 is better. Which is a long hallway or parking garage at my apartment.

I'm actually trying to sell it now to get some cash for my business
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#4
I'm a big fan of PCCs. The biggest reason for me is that the whole family is willing to shot them and practice with them. My wife has shot every rifle we have and my daughter has shot some of the rifles, but they both are more than willing to spend a few hours at the range with the PCCs and practice.

My daughter has a Beretta Storm in 9mm. She likes the way it looks, she says it looks sci-fi. IF it gets her shooting, so be it. She operates it well and we have had her out to 50 yards with it and she can hit an 8 inch paper plate without a problem with a red dot. So, that is her PCC.

Rhonda has an ATI PCC 9mm that uses Glock magazines. Since we are a Glock family, it made sense for her to get one that uses the same magazines. You can see pictures of her rifle here: http://sepboard.us/showthread.php?tid=1251

She didn't need the tripod, but she seen one and wanted it on her gun. So, the wife gets what she wants.

I have the Freedom FX-9 that uses Glock magazines. Here is a picture of mine: http://sepboard.us/showthread.php?tid=1238

We also have a JRC Takedown model that goes on vacations with us. It is in its own backpack and makes it easy to transport around and if we ever had to go to foot and still stay grey, it looks like a backpack and not a gun bag.

The ATI and Freedom are both nice guns and priced well. They have ran almost falsely. The ATI broke a firing pin. I contacted customer service and sent the bolt in and two weeks later had a brand new bolt and firing pin. Since then, no issues. At the point it broke it had about 250-300 total through the gun. Since the replacement, I have had ~500 through it without any issues. I'm guessing I just got a defective pin and they quickly made it correct.

Cost I think the Freedom is $599 and the ATI is $699, but haven't checked in a few months.

The JRC is nice, but it is more of a pain to take apart and clean. Still a nice gun, but just not as easy to maintain as the others.

Cost, the JRC is around $600 depending on model (can be more or just little less, but usually between $600-700).

I have shot the Kel-Tec and like the idea, but the size of it was not comfortable for me or Rhonda, so we passed on it once we shot it. We have also used  CAA Roni in a IDPA match. It was fine, but I think I would prefer a dedicated PCC instead of taking one of my pistols apart.

So, that is my take on PCCs. I really like them, they are effective for the environment and purpose that we would be using them in and the whole family is willing and able to utilize them, which is the biggest plus to me.


Attached Files
.docx   Zeroing a 9mm AR Carbine.docx (Size: 17.11 KB / Downloads: 2)
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#5
I like the idea of the Sub-2000 in 9mm.  But be careful as they had a recall on a particular year of the Gen 2 models.  Issue with the barrel rupturing, which doesn't sound like a very good thing.  You'd have to research what year or serial numbers were affected.

I'm going to second Mac's suggestion on the Ruger PCC.  Initial observations as well as looking at others reviews, just seems to be a solid choice all the way around.  I like that with the simple change of a mag insert you can use Ruger or Glock magazines.  I would imagine that as time goes on other inserts will become available as well.  Easy to take down.  Accurate.  And like most Ruger products it's built like a tank.  So far I can't see any negatives.

I wouldn't mind having another PCC and to be honest, the Ruger PCC would be my first choice.  

IIRC, the 9mm gets about a 300 fps increase in the 16 inch barrel over the 4 inch.  Give or take depending on the ammo and weight of course.  But that's respectable and puts the 9mm up squarely in the .357 realm.  Just have to make sure you are using a round that will do well at the increased velocity.  And of course FMJ would be fine.  I would imagine something like a 147 Gold Dot would do quite well since it's a bonded bullet and heavy-for-caliber.
Governmental dependance makes for poor self reliance.

"What could possibly go wrong with a duct tape boat?"  Cody Lundin

The best defense against evil men are good men with violent skill sets.
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#6
I've been pushing PCCs for over 15 years. They offer several advantages over rifle calibers and can accomplish most of the same things.
With the category absolutely exploding in the last few years, you have more options than ever. If you want to stay on the reasonable end of the price spectrum, there are two good options. PSA AR9 and Ruger PCC. With these both being down around $500 they relegate the Keltec and Hi-point to also-rans. The Beretta is a solid gun, but too pricey to compete anymore and takes only Beretta mags which most of is don't use. The CZ Scorpion is also a great gun, but with the necessary upgrades and proprietary mags, you'll have a grand in it pretty quickly. High end AR9s and the Sig MPX don't offer enough benefits to justify their exorbitant pricetags.
If I wasn't already set with 2 great AR9s, I'd pick up a Ruger PCC without hesitation.
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#7






Governmental dependance makes for poor self reliance.

"What could possibly go wrong with a duct tape boat?"  Cody Lundin

The best defense against evil men are good men with violent skill sets.
Reply
#8
I have a Palmetto State Army AR-9 pistol with a 10.5" barrel. The PAR-9 is not really a carbine but it is a long barreled pistol. I could put a stock on it and get my SBR stamp but I am trying to keep it as light as possible. It can handle a lot more pressure than what my 1911 Colt Govt is rated (+P). I have some JHP that are 1250fps in the 1911 that jump up to 1570fps in the AR. It is a lot of fun to shoot.

Dad had an Uzi back in the day. I shot it a few times and was never that impressed. It was a doorway cleaner. Lots of lead in a general direction and it was loud unless you had the suppressor on it. Even then it was loud.
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#9
Still - the HiPoints at ~$299 are pretty cheap and easy. I shot Dave's in .40 and 9...liked them both. Not th sexiest things, but still.

Forgot about the Ruger! Good call!!!
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#10
Nothing wrong with the Hi-Point carbine.  No, I wouldn't necessarily put it in the same class as other PCC's.  No, not a 'battle' rifle.  But having owned three, well, it was fun to shoot, easy to shoot and accurate.  Didn't like 147 grain very much (for the 995TS model) but 115 and 124 shot all day long.  I bought a used one once for $200.  That's about all I'd spend on one again personally.  For a trunk gun, plinker or back up rifle it's a good choice if you're watching your $.  

Simple blowback design.  Not terribly difficult to break down and clean.  Biggest drawback I ever heard was the 10-round magazine limit.  That can be circumvented with the new 20-round magazines. For what it is, it's fine.  If you can do the price tag on the Ruger I'd go that way simply because of the Glock mag adaptability.  

The 4095TS (.40 S&W version of the HP rifle) was a pleasure to shoot.  Very accurate.  Put that .40 round at the lower end of the 10mm.
Governmental dependance makes for poor self reliance.

"What could possibly go wrong with a duct tape boat?"  Cody Lundin

The best defense against evil men are good men with violent skill sets.
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