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Edged weapons - David - 02-11-2018

Edged weapon tactics and counter tactics

From my edged weapon course:

gross motor skilled response that controls the delivery system (such as grasping and holding the limb that is holding the edged weapon) while counter-attacking high % areas is the key.  I've highlighted the three key areas:

  1. Gross motor skilled response.  This doesn't include kicking the knife out of the attacker's hand or some other choreographed response with isn't going to work in real life against a violent, determined attacker.  The response has to be simple, direct and deliberate. 
  2. Control the delivery system.  Grasp and hold the attacking limb to prevent the attacker from freely using that limb.  
  3. Counter-attack a high % area.  Strike/kick/grab at areas of the body that have the highest % chance of disabling, disorienting or incapacitating the attacker in the quickest amount of time possible.  To include the temple, eyes, throat, side of neck, groin, major joints etc.

RE: Edged weapons - bdcochran - 04-02-2018

The article simply confirmed what I already suspected, by citation to statistics. 

I would add the following.

 Murder, Inc. switched to ice picks as the weapon of choice as most people, involuntarily, will avoid killing someone with a firearm, including early members of Murder, Inc.

I recently read an article by Ernie Emerson.  He said that the best preparation for knife fighting was not taking a knife fighting course.  It was to practice situational  awareness and reactions to being attacked.  He gave specific drills.

An ice pick, crow bar, steel pipe, wooden stick, sharpened screwdriver, baseball bat, cane, walking stick are all potentially legal carry tools and are not recognized as weapons by the general public.

Despite the movies and television acting, you cannot simply suture a puncture wound or a cut by a serrated blade.  Even getting cut by a ceramic dish leads to significant medical treatment.  Examples:

1.  I dropped a ceramic dish in the sink and cut a wrist.  It took the surgeon an hour to do the repairs.

2.  I accidentally cut myself with a serrated blade.  I knew the limitations of medicine when I arrived at the doctor.  He asked ME what to do.  I told him that it was not possible to sew, but to take time and clean out the wound.

In past times, a segment of society would carry a straight edge razor as a defensive weapon.  It wasn't a knife or a gun.  A number of members of this segment of society had genetic difficulty with shaving every day and would do so only when necessary - hence, carrying a straight edge.  No one went to prison for carrying one. 

Today, a person might get arrested for "carrying a concealed weapon" if he or she carried a knife.  Try getting a conviction of a homeless person carrying a cast off, sharpened straight edge screwdriver!  Moreover, no one is going to steal your recycled old screwdriver from the center console of your old car.

RE: Edged weapons - mac66 - 04-03-2018

All the years I was a cop I don't ever think I saw or heard of a "knife fight" but did see plenty of stabbings. Most of those were heat of anger type things where something sharp happened to handy when the persons involved got into a argument. Those ranged from screw drivers to kitchen knives to bar-b-que forks.

When I was in college (early 70s) both my roommate and I bounced at at pretty rowdy bar. We threw some patrons out one night. During the scuffle one pulled a knife and stabbed my roommate in the buttocks. It was a one sided knife fight and the assailant got beat down before he could get in another stab. The thing is my roommate didn't even notice it at the time. The bouncer behind him saw the guy stab him and took him down. It hurt like hell later but not at the time.

Another time we threw a couple guys out and were standing outside in the parking lot when one pulled and flipped open a switchblade. As soon as he flipped it open I kicked him in the solar plexes. Both he and the knife went flying.

My point is that knife fights usually aren't. They are usually quick stabbings or a knife is used to intimidate. They taught us in the police academy to run from a knife, go for a gun. (can't outrun a bullet). So distance equals time equals safety when it comes to pointy objects. IMO, if someone pulls a knife and hasn't used it right away they are either unsure or unwilling to do so. That gives you the opportunity to either run or attack brutally before they make up their mind of what they are going to do.

RE: Edged weapons - bdcochran - 04-04-2018

Sad story. A homeless woman drew a sharpened screwdriver on a young policeman. His immediate response was to draw and shoot. He was fired unfortunately.

The quickness of a "knife fight" is not readily apparent to people. With one day of training, a woman can draw a folder from a pocket carry and have it displayed at a person's throat in .9 second. Men fare worse. I could only do 1.1 second.

Yes, Mac66 is correct about response time. When I cut myself, I knew it would be a short time before shock set in. I knew because a USMC instructor had been accidentally cut with a serrated blade (his fault) and he said that he told his class that before shock set in, he would display the cut - and then take him immediately to the hospital.

If you are ever going to use a knife (and I hope that you never do), don't use your free hand to fend off blows. Even in practice with plastic or wooden knives, the free hand has to be wrapped in a towel to avoid injury - just like wearing a defensive pad in escrima practice.

RE: Edged weapons - David - 04-05-2018

(04-04-2018, 08:15 PM)bdcochran Wrote: Sad story.  A homeless woman drew a sharpened screwdriver on a young policeman.  His immediate response was to draw and shoot.  He was fired unfortunately.  

On what grounds did they fire him?  A screwdriver is an edged weapon (and used in a surprisingly large number of stabbings).  And edged weapon is a deadly force situation.

RE: Edged weapons - bdcochran - 11-26-2018

The defense forum has a number of subsections. This posting combines all of them with some observations based upon past experience and my current age/physical condition.

Hand-to-hand combat.
1. spent a week in Kaiser on morphine drip following injury in martial arts.
2. learning movements to avoid contact and to avoid grappling is fine; deliberately engaging to use your grappling skills gives up any advantage.

Hand held weapon.
1. had the training in escrima/folder fighting/entrenching tool.
2. the movements in escrima/folder/yawara stick/defensive pen/entrenching tool/sword fighting are constrained/controlled by human ergonomics. With a day of practice, you can become proficient in deploying a folder. It is easy to find training in basic escrima. If you substitute a pen/knife/sword/steel pipe/book edge/a shoe for an escrima stick, the movements are the same. The goal is to not use your hands (and damage them) while utilizing the slight advantage of a longer reach by using a tool protruding from the hand instead of the hand itself.
3. As one of the members posted, a defensive pen or a yawara stick can be carried anywhere and not recognized as a potential weapon. Some other suggestions and why. The why first. Someday, you will be out and about in your car. You stop at a car wash. You have to valet park. Or you go to a wedding reception, park and lock your car. Someone goes in your car and steals. Near Venice Beach, about three blocks from the ocean, you can park for free. Stakeout. As the guy throws the spark plug tip to break a car window, the call is made to the black and white on the perimeter. The guy is almost exited the target car as the black and white pulls up and does the arrest. Guy is part of a specialty team from Columbia. This is why I have an old, sharpened screwdriver, a 28 inch piece of capped black iron water pipe (the dimensions of an escrima stick) sitting in the car - no one is going to steal them. Your Benchmade $150 knife and your baseball bat will be gone when you return.

RE: Edged weapons - Ronin.45 - 11-26-2018

Why would anyone use a knife as a weapon? If I'm going to use a deadly weapon to defend myself, it's going to be a gun. I can't imagine picking a much less effective weapon in any situation. The only time I wouldn't have a gun is if I'm in a government building and then I wouldn't have a knife either(or sharpened screwdriver or steel pipe)

RE: Edged weapons - Bob - 11-27-2018

(11-26-2018, 05:37 PM)Ronin.45 Wrote: Why would anyone use a knife as a weapon? If I'm going to use a deadly weapon to defend myself, it's going to be a gun. I can't imagine picking a much less effective weapon in any situation. The only time I wouldn't have a gun is if I'm in a government building and then I wouldn't have a knife either(or sharpened screwdriver or steel pipe)

Because gun > knife > fingers

If it's what you have, and you know how to use it....

RE: Edged weapons - David - 11-28-2018

Knife vs. gun is situational in regards to what is best.  

Generally speaking, most would prefer to have a firearm and that choice has merit.  However, in regards to an edged weapon i.e. knife, points to consider:
  • In the hands of someone trained in it's use a knife can be deadlier than a firearm in terms of sheer amount of damaged tissue.  
  • Silent.
  • Does not run out of ammunition.
  • Does not jam or otherwise malfunction (though it can break).
Drawbacks of course are range.  Plus from an SEP perspective a knife is multi-use.  Just tossing this into the discussion.